Jedi and Wizards and Bears, No Lie

[9/27/12 6:37:26 PM] sam: The Tee Fury t-shirt today is like 5 wizards standing together…well you can look at it
[9/27/12 6:37:50 PM] sam: Obi-wan’s on there and a lot of the comments say how he doesn’t belong in the same class with wizards

[9/28/12 11:48:55 AM] alanah: obi wan

[9/28/12 11:48:57 AM] sam: lol
[9/28/12 11:48:59 AM] sam: yes

[9/28/12 11:49:02 AM] alanah: not a wizard

[9/28/12 11:49:05 AM] sam: ok

[9/28/12 11:49:18 AM] alanah: i can see how someone would argue for his wizardness, but no
[9/28/12 11:49:26 AM] alanah: if you asked obi wan, he’d be angry

[9/28/12 11:49:30 AM] sam: i’ve gotten like 2 no’s and 2 yesses

[9/28/12 11:49:33 AM] alanah: “im not a wizard! ima jedi!”

[9/28/12 11:49:41 AM] sam: lol well yes
[9/28/12 11:49:47 AM] sam: and he says that he’s not a wizard
[9/28/12 11:49:50 AM] sam: and what not
[9/28/12 11:50:55 AM] sam: i guess what the question is really asking, because I think the same could be asked of any jedi or sith for that matter, is if the manipulation of the Force is basically the same as the manipulation of any kind of ethereal power more commonly associated with magic

[9/28/12 11:51:20 AM] alanah: no
[9/28/12 11:51:29 AM] alanah: because i dont think the force qualifies
[9/28/12 11:51:43 AM] alanah: i mean, if we look at the other four wizards
[9/28/12 11:51:54 AM] alanah: which, i havent looked at the shirt, but ima guess:
[9/28/12 11:52:02 AM] alanah: harry or someone potter
[9/28/12 11:52:06 AM] alanah: gandalf

[9/28/12 11:52:07 AM] sam: voldemort

[9/28/12 11:52:11 AM] alanah: ew

[9/28/12 11:52:12 AM] sam: gandalf yes

[9/28/12 11:52:13 AM] alanah: really?

[9/28/12 11:52:15 AM] sam: yup

[9/28/12 11:52:19 AM] alanah: voldemort?
[9/28/12 11:52:24 AM] alanah: they picked VOLDEMORT?
[9/28/12 11:52:26 AM] alanah: ugh

[9/28/12 11:52:25 AM] sam: mhmm

[9/28/12 11:52:30 AM] alanah: frakbags
[9/28/12 11:52:31 AM] alanah: ok
[9/28/12 11:52:39 AM] alanah: well, gross

[9/28/12 11:52:41 AM] sam: it’s supposed to be an Arrested Development t-shirt i think
[9/28/12 11:52:49 AM] sam: i don’t know the other two people in it

[9/28/12 11:53:29 AM] alanah: ……the wizard of oz?
[9/28/12 11:53:31 AM] alanah: he on there?

[9/28/12 11:53:38 AM] sam: and the word wizard isn’t involved, they’re called magicians
[9/28/12 11:53:43 AM] sam: no

[9/28/12 11:53:45 AM] alanah: oh

[9/28/12 11:53:52 AM] sam: the dude in the middle is from arrested development

[9/28/12 11:53:55 AM] alanah: well thats even more different
[9/28/12 11:53:57 AM] alanah: hm

[9/28/12 11:53:58 AM] sam: i have no clue about the other guy

[9/28/12 11:54:03 AM] alanah: ok hold on
[9/28/12 11:54:08 AM] alanah: send me the pic

[9/28/12 11:54:21 AM] sam: posted file 1345836208_BOTTOM-alliance.jpeg to members of this conversation

[9/28/12 11:55:00 AM] alanah: ew
[9/28/12 11:55:01 AM] alanah: EW
[9/28/12 11:55:03 AM] alanah: UGH
[9/28/12 11:55:05 AM] alanah: i hate this
[9/28/12 11:55:08 AM] alanah: i HATE this shirt

[9/28/12 11:55:09 AM] sam: lol

[9/28/12 11:55:14 AM] alanah: oh my g… no
[9/28/12 11:55:18 AM] alanah: just…WHO MADE THIS?
[9/28/12 11:55:29 AM] alanah: ok
[9/28/12 11:55:30 AM] alanah: first of all

[9/28/12 11:55:37 AM] sam: it’s Lo Pan? don’t know who that is…

[9/28/12 11:55:52 AM] alanah: Gob isnt a magician
[9/28/12 11:55:58 AM] alanah: he’s an illusionist
[9/28/12 11:56:00 AM] alanah: and a TERRIBLE one

[9/28/12 11:56:08 AM] sam: lol

[9/28/12 11:56:10 AM] alanah: he’s comic relief with how bad he is at parlor tricks

[9/28/12 11:56:15 AM] sam: ugh

[9/28/12 11:56:22 AM] alanah: so he doesnt belong on there at all, regardless
[9/28/12 11:56:26 AM] alanah: because he’s just a human!

[9/28/12 11:56:34 AM] sam: well then yes
[9/28/12 11:56:41 AM] sam: the shirt is kind of pointless…

[9/28/12 11:56:43 AM] alanah: gandalf and voldemort have no business being on the same one

[9/28/12 11:56:44 AM] sam: guh
[9/28/12 11:56:51 AM] sam: haha yeah no…

[9/28/12 11:56:57 AM] alanah: because when in all hell would they EVER be a part of the same alliance or guild?
[9/28/12 11:56:59 AM] alanah: WHEN?

[9/28/12 11:57:16 AM] sam: yeah they should’ve used like Dumbledore, or even Snape

[9/28/12 11:57:21 AM] alanah: gandalf and voldy would be mortal (psuedo-immortal) enemies
[9/28/12 11:57:25 AM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 11:57:27 AM] alanah: YEAH
[9/28/12 11:57:34 AM] alanah: thats ridiculous
[9/28/12 11:57:35 AM] alanah: and
[9/28/12 11:57:36 AM] alanah: AND
[9/28/12 11:57:44 AM] alanah: i would submit that magic and dark magic
[9/28/12 11:57:46 AM] alanah: arent even the same
[9/28/12 11:57:51 AM] alanah: that evil magic and good magic
[9/28/12 11:57:56 AM] alanah: come from different sources
[9/28/12 11:57:58 AM] alanah: bah
[9/28/12 11:58:02 AM] alanah: but thats just me
[9/28/12 11:58:13 AM] alanah: so a dark magician and a light magician, to me, dont belong on the same shirt
[9/28/12 11:58:23 AM] alanah: but gandalf and voldy arent MAGICIANS
[9/28/12 11:58:26 AM] alanah: theyre WIZARDS!

[9/28/12 11:58:38 AM] sam: waitwaitwait

[9/28/12 11:58:45 AM] alanah: they manipulate the natural qualities of nature

[9/28/12 11:58:45 AM] sam: why are those two mutually exclusive?

[9/28/12 11:58:51 AM] alanah: because
[9/28/12 11:59:10 AM] alanah: let me elaborate
[9/28/12 12:00:55 PM] alanah: wizards walk up to a tree and go “this tree has magical qualities in it. i will chop it up and have a wand and use it. also, i will pick up these herbs – which have natural, magical qualities, and brew them to make a magical potion. then, i will speak these words, which – as part of language, which is a naturally emergent part of life and sentience – to heighten the effects of all this frak”
[9/28/12 12:01:08 PM] alanah: wizards do that
[9/28/12 12:01:16 PM] alanah: magicians, on the other hand
[9/28/12 12:04:08 PM] alanah: go “i have been imbued by someone – god or a demon or some other force – with some mysterious power that allows me to defy physics. i can disappear or reappear myself or other things, and manipulate bodies or objects without breaking or harming them permanently, and have super-abilities that allow me to defy death and the like. But i am one of the few, chosen by some being to be this, or a follower of a thing that left behind some way for me to learn the secret to accessing these powers. there are few of us, and only the special few can access this power of magic.”
[9/28/12 12:04:30 PM] alanah: where wizards manipulate what is inside of everything, and are essentially naturally occurring, magicians are not
[9/28/12 12:04:57 PM] alanah: i would posit that sorcerers are different too….but id have to think about that

[9/28/12 12:05:02 PM] sam: so how is voldemort not a magician?

[9/28/12 12:05:55 PM] alanah: because voldemort still uses what is naturally there, in people and in trees and phoenix feathers
[9/28/12 12:06:06 PM] alanah: i think that voldy was a wizard who kinda tried to be a magician….but no…

[9/28/12 12:06:26 PM] sam: but we know in HP land that they’re born with the ability to do magic or not do magic

[9/28/12 12:06:32 PM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 12:06:38 PM] alanah: but in the HP world

[9/28/12 12:06:51 PM] sam: they also say that you can do magic without words and wands if you’re powerful enough

[9/28/12 12:07:08 PM] alanah: thats only because being born is a natural process, and humans are part of the natural world, and just like some trees arent good for wandmaking, some people arent good for magic harnessing
[9/28/12 12:07:13 PM] alanah: not everyone is a wizard
[9/28/12 12:07:35 PM] alanah: yeah but wordless spells are not something that just comes
[9/28/12 12:07:39 PM] alanah: it takes practice and skill
[9/28/12 12:08:06 PM] alanah: its like learning to make salsa
[9/28/12 12:08:19 PM] alanah: some peppers will make it hotter, and some tomatoes just taste better
[9/28/12 12:08:33 PM] alanah: eventually, you dont even need a recipe, you just know how it goes
[9/28/12 12:08:44 PM] alanah: magicians are chosen after birth though
[9/28/12 12:09:06 PM] alanah: or they choose
[9/28/12 12:09:09 PM] alanah: but still
[9/28/12 12:09:28 PM] alanah: some people are bad at math
[9/28/12 12:09:34 PM] alanah: but math is there for everyone to take
[9/28/12 12:10:10 PM] alanah: its not like math is this secret that only ninety people in the world know about, and the select few who search for it find it and cant learn it and do it
[9/28/12 12:10:25 PM] alanah: nor is there a Great Mathematician who picks and chooses new followers once a year
[9/28/12 12:10:27 PM] alanah: thats magician stuff

[9/28/12 12:10:32 PM] sam: but i wouldn’t say that like 11 year old Harry who’s able to make things float and blow up, or even 17 year old harry who can apparate and perform occlumency (maybe) is a wizard who understands the mystical power of certain trees and things. I think that by your definition becoming a wizard takes practice and skill and being a magician, while yes you still need some direction is something that you are just capable of doing. Even still the idea that you are a magician and then one day learn enough to be called a wizard instead seems silly…you’re still a magician…

[9/28/12 12:10:35 PM] alanah: wizardry is more like real math
[9/28/12 12:11:18 PM] alanah: i dont think you can be a wizard, and try to be a magician, but you cant be a magician trying to be a wizard
[9/28/12 12:11:20 PM] alanah: that doesnt work
[9/28/12 12:11:46 PM] alanah: its not about how much you LEARN that makes you a wizard
[9/28/12 12:11:52 PM] alanah: wizardry is a result of the world you live in
[9/28/12 12:11:55 PM] alanah: the HP world
[9/28/12 12:12:00 PM] alanah: Middle Earth
[9/28/12 12:12:02 PM] alanah: its a verse thing
[9/28/12 12:12:07 PM] alanah: wizards only exist in certain worlds
[9/28/12 12:12:13 PM] alanah: magicians exist in others

[9/28/12 12:12:41 PM] sam: ok so what do you call people like harry, before he was in Hogwarts. People who don’t like in a world where magic is acknowledged but who clearly still have magical abilities?

[9/28/12 12:12:56 PM] alanah: i can see some crossover in a world where wizards are good and magicians are bad, but otherwise, id think they belong in entirely different verses
[9/28/12 12:13:05 PM] alanah: no
[9/28/12 12:13:07 PM] alanah: no
[9/28/12 12:13:11 PM] alanah: harry was ALWAYS a wizard
[9/28/12 12:13:13 PM] alanah: he just didnt know
[9/28/12 12:13:36 PM] alanah: in HP, the muggle “world” vs the wizard “world” is a facade
[9/28/12 12:13:39 PM] alanah: they all live in the same world
[9/28/12 12:13:42 PM] alanah: on the same planet
[9/28/12 12:13:45 PM] alanah: in the same universe
[9/28/12 12:13:50 PM] alanah: its one world

[9/28/12 12:14:15 PM] sam: i’m not saying it isn’t
[9/28/12 12:14:23 PM] sam: when did the muggles get invited to the party?

[9/28/12 12:14:46 PM] alanah: the muggles live in the same world, which has magical trees and plants and people
[9/28/12 12:15:03 PM] alanah: the muggles are just the “normal grass” next to mandrake roots

[9/28/12 12:15:06 PM] sam: and they have no idea about any of it…right

[9/28/12 12:15:07 PM] alanah: theyre just the other guys
[9/28/12 12:15:19 PM] alanah: !!!
[9/28/12 12:15:24 PM] alanah: thats the whole premise of harry potter!
[9/28/12 12:15:27 PM] alanah: that the muggles dont know!
[9/28/12 12:15:37 PM] alanah: the wizards dont MAKE trees magical!
[9/28/12 12:15:41 PM] alanah: they find the trees, they make wands

[9/28/12 12:15:46 PM] sam: yes

[9/28/12 12:15:49 PM] alanah: the trees are naturally magical

[9/28/12 12:15:49 PM] sam: i know this

[9/28/12 12:16:02 PM] alanah: and yeah, a muggle could come up to that tree, and just not know
[9/28/12 12:16:11 PM] alanah: whats weird about that?

[9/28/12 12:16:15 PM] sam: but you have to be Born different in some way in order to tap into the magic
[9/28/12 12:16:35 PM] sam: i just think the magical people in HP fit better into your definition of magicians than wizards

[9/28/12 12:16:46 PM] alanah: yeah, but only in the same sense that one type of grass is different form another type of grass
[9/28/12 12:17:02 PM] alanah: no way!

[9/28/12 12:17:02 PM] sam: honestly i still really don’t the two are mutually exclusive

[9/28/12 12:17:15 PM] alanah: nah, i disagree
[9/28/12 12:17:31 PM] alanah: i think wizards are necessarily naturally occurring, and magicians arent
[9/28/12 12:17:36 PM] alanah: but then
[9/28/12 12:17:43 PM] alanah: that still doesnt solve the jedi problem
[9/28/12 12:17:46 PM] alanah: because wtf
[9/28/12 12:17:51 PM] alanah: why
[9/28/12 12:17:52 PM] alanah: WHY

[9/28/12 12:17:51 PM] sam: no you said magicians were born with their power…how is that not naturally occurring?

[9/28/12 12:17:55 PM] alanah: is obi wan there
[9/28/12 12:17:58 PM] alanah: no
[9/28/12 12:18:06 PM] alanah: no i said the magicians are NOT born with their power
[9/28/12 12:18:13 PM] alanah: i said they are chosen or choose AFTER being born
[9/28/12 12:18:29 PM] alanah: no no no
[9/28/12 12:18:34 PM] alanah: wizards are born that way
[9/28/12 12:18:46 PM] alanah: magicians are not

[9/28/12 12:18:51 PM] sam: ok so first you have to be a wizard then if you try hard enough you can become a magician?

[9/28/12 12:18:56 PM] alanah: no!
[9/28/12 12:19:13 PM] alanah: magician is not superior to wizard
[9/28/12 12:19:14 PM] alanah: at all
[9/28/12 12:19:19 PM] alanah: magician is a cultish thing


[9/28/12 12:19:26 PM] sam: right but it’s something you become

[9/28/12 12:19:42 PM] alanah: yeah its something you can become, but it is not because of nature

[9/28/12 12:19:55 PM] sam: and i would posit that you have to have some knowledge of magic in order to tap into the powers necessary to “transform” you into a magician

[9/28/12 12:20:02 PM] alanah: it is a being or some really unnatural force that gives you power

[9/28/12 12:20:02 PM] sam: which sounds kind of wizardly

[9/28/12 12:20:15 PM] alanah: you are still human, as a magician
[9/28/12 12:20:26 PM] alanah: like, pretty dang normal
[9/28/12 12:20:31 PM] alanah: you just get to play with magic
[9/28/12 12:20:37 PM] alanah: but its not IN you, not like its IN wizards
[9/28/12 12:21:05 PM] alanah: yeah, i think youre right, you have to learn to be a magician, you have to go find something, or something has to be brought to you
[9/28/12 12:21:12 PM] alanah: but its like….
[9/28/12 12:21:21 PM] alanah: its the difference between playing with playdough
[9/28/12 12:21:24 PM] alanah: and BEING playdough
[9/28/12 12:21:54 PM] alanah: wizards have playdough inside of them, coming out of their fingers and latching on to other bits of playdough in the earth and trees and making awesome frak
[9/28/12 12:22:11 PM] alanah: magicians hear about this mystical thing called playdough
[9/28/12 12:22:34 PM] alanah: and go looking for it, find the Playdoughers, join them, and learn the craft of playdough, and then play with it
[9/28/12 12:22:39 PM] alanah: some of them get really good at it
[9/28/12 12:22:45 PM] alanah: like, they can make little horse figures
[9/28/12 12:22:51 PM] alanah: and giraffes and frak
[9/28/12 12:22:57 PM] alanah: but its not a part of them
[9/28/12 12:23:17 PM] alanah: and its not in the rest of the world, inherently, in the magician’s universe
[9/28/12 12:23:28 PM] alanah: magicians exist in Alanah and Sam’s world
[9/28/12 12:23:33 PM] alanah: but not in the HP world
[9/28/12 12:23:57 PM] alanah: …..ok, now i have this horrible image of a cult that ritualizes eating playdough
[9/28/12 12:24:02 PM] alanah: and its kind of ruining my life

[9/28/12 12:24:11 PM] sam: ugh…
[9/28/12 12:24:12 PM] sam: gross

[9/28/12 12:24:15 PM] alanah: right?
[9/28/12 12:24:16 PM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 12:24:17 PM] alanah: oh god
[9/28/12 12:24:17 PM] alanah: ew
[9/28/12 12:25:03 PM] alanah: i think they have to be mutually exclusive, because they require different worlds
[9/28/12 12:25:09 PM] alanah: like, different laws of nature

[9/28/12 12:25:16 PM] sam: i think one of the things that makes the Star Wars situation weird is that we get more information about the thing that gives people power than we do in other situations
[9/28/12 12:25:29 PM] sam: it’s always just “‘magic”

[9/28/12 12:25:31 PM] alanah: hm….
[9/28/12 12:25:40 PM] alanah: i think what interesting about star wars

[9/28/12 12:26:10 PM] sam: and because we know about the Force, and the medicloreans ( however the frak you spell it) it makes it feel less mystical so you don’t label it as magic

[9/28/12 12:26:29 PM] alanah: is this idea of the Force being so…..literal
[9/28/12 12:26:38 PM] alanah: i think its midichloreans?
[9/28/12 12:26:42 PM] alanah: but then, im not sure
[9/28/12 12:26:42 PM] alanah: lol
[9/28/12 12:26:45 PM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 12:26:48 PM] alanah: i totally agree
[9/28/12 12:26:53 PM] alanah: it seems completely not mythical
[9/28/12 12:26:59 PM] alanah: theres no one who doesnt know about the force
[9/28/12 12:27:14 PM] alanah: and the force isnt so selective
[9/28/12 12:27:17 PM] alanah: its in everyone
[9/28/12 12:27:24 PM] alanah: some people just have more midis than others
[9/28/12 12:27:26 PM] alanah: hm….

[9/28/12 12:27:30 PM] sam: well there are, i mean in Luke’s childhood no one tells him about it right? he only learns about it through obi-wan

[9/28/12 12:27:54 PM] alanah: dangit, i need to rewatch episode 4
[9/28/12 12:27:56 PM] alanah: its been a while
[9/28/12 12:28:09 PM] alanah: i cant remember if luke knows what a jedi is or not….
[9/28/12 12:28:11 PM] alanah: i mean, but then
[9/28/12 12:28:16 PM] alanah: luke is living on tatooine
[9/28/12 12:28:33 PM] alanah: a planet of slavery and no real, solid government

[9/28/12 12:28:33 PM] sam: yeah the notion of the Force is treated like magic, they call Obi-wan a wizard because no one understands the things he does anymore
[9/28/12 12:28:38 PM] sam: it’s mostly the mind tricks so…

[9/28/12 12:28:42 PM] alanah: so his case might not be the norm
[9/28/12 12:28:52 PM] alanah: hm…
[9/28/12 12:29:19 PM] alanah: its almost as if the people on tatooine are meant to appear ignorant on purpose

[9/28/12 12:29:18 PM] sam: yeah him and an entire planet, and most of the rest of the quadrant since like all the Jedi are dead.

[9/28/12 12:29:39 PM] alanah: like, their labeling obi a wizard seems so ridiculous
[9/28/12 12:29:52 PM] alanah: i think we’re supposed to expect that wizards arent real in the star wars verse
[9/28/12 12:29:59 PM] alanah: oh thats right
[9/28/12 12:30:00 PM] alanah: right
[9/28/12 12:30:01 PM] alanah: ah
[9/28/12 12:30:06 PM] alanah: forgot about all the dead jedi
[9/28/12 12:30:07 PM] alanah: important
[9/28/12 12:30:09 PM] alanah: but still
[9/28/12 12:30:17 PM] alanah: its an important question:
[9/28/12 12:30:32 PM] alanah: whether or not knowledge of the jedi is generational, are wizards real?
[9/28/12 12:30:38 PM] alanah: do they exist in the SW verse?

[9/28/12 12:31:02 PM] sam: i mean you would essentially have to say that all Jedi are wizards
[9/28/12 12:31:35 PM] sam: that they have a heightened sense of things since birth, and that with a bit of training they can become powerful
[9/28/12 12:31:46 PM] sam: some of them turn evil and try to take over the galaxy…
[9/28/12 12:31:52 PM] sam: gee that doesn’t sound familiar

[9/28/12 12:32:02 PM] alanah: i dunno….
[9/28/12 12:32:11 PM] alanah: i mean, i agree with the naturally occurring thing
[9/28/12 12:32:27 PM] alanah: in star wars…
[9/28/12 12:32:45 PM] alanah: i dunno, in star wars, it almost seems like the force could very well not exist at all
[9/28/12 12:32:50 PM] alanah: does that make sense?
[9/28/12 12:32:52 PM] alanah: like Justice
[9/28/12 12:33:05 PM] alanah: one of those things that isnt real, and just name it?
[9/28/12 12:33:22 PM] alanah: The Force?
[9/28/12 12:33:40 PM] alanah: to explain something that we want to happen or enact?
[9/28/12 12:33:42 PM] alanah: i dunno
[9/28/12 12:33:49 PM] alanah: i can see the justification for them being wizards

[9/28/12 12:33:52 PM] sam: i mean it’s quantifiable though

[9/28/12 12:33:57 PM] alanah: but it feels like a simplification for what the jedi mean
[9/28/12 12:34:09 PM] alanah: because in a lot of ways, the jedi seem like really friggin awesome men
[9/28/12 12:34:25 PM] alanah: but just men
[9/28/12 12:34:45 PM] alanah: who are surpassed whatever inhibits most people from accessing the rest of their selves
[9/28/12 12:34:48 PM] alanah: i dunno

[9/28/12 12:34:48 PM] sam: like in episode 1, they’re worried that if Ani doesn’t get training he’ll lose his abilities or just never be able to control them. And it’s all just because his mediclorean count is so freakishly high

[9/28/12 12:35:01 PM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 12:35:04 PM] alanah: well yeah
[9/28/12 12:35:37 PM] alanah: i mean, midicloreans would be the wizard gene
[9/28/12 12:35:42 PM] alanah: i suppose
[9/28/12 12:35:46 PM] alanah: but again
[9/28/12 12:35:57 PM] alanah: why does wizard seem like such a simplification?
[9/28/12 12:36:04 PM] alanah: theres something missing

[9/28/12 12:36:11 PM] sam: the martial arts training?

[9/28/12 12:37:04 PM] alanah: its not just a matter of some people not knowing, because in Middle Earth everyone knows too…
[9/28/12 12:37:05 PM] alanah: wait
[9/28/12 12:37:07 PM] alanah: HA
[9/28/12 12:37:08 PM] alanah: funny
[9/28/12 12:37:12 PM] alanah: but a question:
[9/28/12 12:37:15 PM] alanah: is gandalf human?
[9/28/12 12:37:21 PM] alanah: or is wizard a species in middle earth?
[9/28/12 12:37:34 PM] alanah: because other creatures, humanoid but not human, are magical, like elves, etc
[9/28/12 12:37:43 PM] sam: i always thought of them as being a different species, but I dunno
[9/28/12 12:37:54 PM] alanah: and wizards are treated like “oh, theres elves, dwarves, wizards”

[9/28/12 12:37:55 PM] sam: I think they’re more closely related to the elves perhaps

[9/28/12 12:38:00 PM] alanah: hm
[9/28/12 12:38:15 PM] alanah: for some reason i always thought they were some human/elf between-species
[9/28/12 12:38:26 PM] alanah: but if theyre not humans, then the definition falls apart
[9/28/12 12:38:36 PM] alanah: well, no it doesnt…
[9/28/12 12:38:43 PM] alanah: it just means that any species could be a wizard
[9/28/12 12:38:49 PM] alanah: *imagines a wizard bear*

[9/28/12 12:38:48 PM] sam: yeah i think that’s ok

[9/28/12 12:38:50 PM] alanah: um
[9/28/12 12:38:51 PM] alanah: UM

[9/28/12 12:38:52 PM] sam: lol

[9/28/12 12:38:56 PM] alanah: can i have a wizard bear?
[9/28/12 12:38:59 PM] alanah: i want a wizard bear
[9/28/12 12:39:00 PM] alanah: holy frak

[9/28/12 12:39:06 PM] sam: only if I can borrow it sometimes

[9/28/12 12:39:09 PM] alanah: ok
[9/28/12 12:39:10 PM] alanah: yes
[9/28/12 12:39:14 PM] alanah: you can borrow my wizard bear
[9/28/12 12:39:15 PM] alanah: sometimes

[9/28/12 12:39:15 PM] sam: in guild wars 2 you can turn into a bear…that does magic
[9/28/12 12:39:21 PM] sam: …

[9/28/12 12:39:23 PM] alanah: ….
[9/28/12 12:39:31 PM] alanah: but is it a wizard bear? or a beargician?
[9/28/12 12:39:33 PM] alanah: XDDDDDDDDDDDDD
[9/28/12 12:39:43 PM] alanah: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[9/28/12 12:40:03 PM] sam: hmm see i don’t know, they don’t use words…though you do use like staves and stuff
[9/28/12 12:40:21 PM] sam: probably wizard bear though…

[9/28/12 12:40:31 PM] alanah: ok
[9/28/12 12:40:32 PM] alanah: cool

[9/28/12 12:40:35 PM] sam: the whole, commune with nature thing is kind of a big deal

[9/28/12 12:40:37 PM] alanah: *giggles*
[9/28/12 12:40:41 PM] alanah: i love this idea of wizard bear
[9/28/12 12:40:48 PM] alanah: i think im going to have to design a wizard bear shirt now
[9/28/12 12:40:49 PM] alanah: OMG
[9/28/12 12:40:52 PM] alanah: ILL DESIGN ONE
[9/28/12 12:41:04 PM] alanah: itll say WIZARD BEAR on it, under a wizard bear (obviously)
[9/28/12 12:41:07 PM] alanah: and on the back
[9/28/12 12:41:19 PM] alanah: itll say “Philosophy At Odd Hours”

[9/28/12 12:41:23 PM] sam: hahaha

[9/28/12 12:41:25 PM] alanah: with our url
[9/28/12 12:41:25 PM] alanah: WIN

[9/28/12 12:41:27 PM] sam: lol

[9/28/12 12:41:35 PM] alanah: ok
[9/28/12 12:41:37 PM] alanah: anyway

[9/28/12 12:41:40 PM] sam: our new mascot is the majestic wizard bear?

[9/28/12 12:41:48 PM] alanah: i still am not pleased by the idea of obi as a wizard
[9/28/12 12:41:51 PM] alanah: yes
[9/28/12 12:41:52 PM] alanah: yes it is

[9/28/12 12:42:55 PM] sam: which i understand, because I think a part of what makes a wizard a wizard is that they are noticeably unique from the world they live in in some fashion. Like yes in HP there are a frak-ton of wizards but they are still outnumbered by humans we assume
[9/28/12 12:43:11 PM] sam: and at least to muggles, their powers are unique

[9/28/12 12:43:19 PM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 12:43:22 PM] alanah: but for jedi

[9/28/12 12:43:31 PM] sam: but in some way being a Jedi, at least in obi-wan’s youth was almost…normal?

[9/28/12 12:43:36 PM] alanah: theres nothing…..mythical about them
[9/28/12 12:43:41 PM] alanah: theyre just a natural part of the world
[9/28/12 12:43:45 PM] alanah: almost like police, really

[9/28/12 12:43:48 PM] sam: haha

[9/28/12 12:43:50 PM] alanah: really suave police….
[9/28/12 12:43:55 PM] alanah: yeah
[9/28/12 12:44:03 PM] alanah: jedi-ness is almost like….a career path?
[9/28/12 12:44:07 PM] alanah: a life choice?
[9/28/12 12:44:09 PM] alanah: lifestyle?

[9/28/12 12:44:31 PM] sam: i think that there could be a fairly sound argument either way, and I’m having a really difficult time deciding how I feel about it
[9/28/12 12:45:06 PM] sam: I keep thinking that like Wizards are necessarily a part of earth, but we don’t know the LOTR  was meant to take place on our planet…

[9/28/12 12:46:01 PM] alanah: no, i think LOTR is a different earth

[9/28/12 12:46:01 PM] sam: at the same time I can’t really identify a difference between manipulating matter in order to create water, or turn a mouse into a drinking glass and manipulating matter in order to throw someone across the room

[9/28/12 12:46:10 PM] alanah: but star wars is our earth, just the future of it
[9/28/12 12:46:15 PM] alanah: ergh

[9/28/12 12:46:26 PM] sam: or a difference between occlumency and “jedi mind tricks”

[9/28/12 12:48:14 PM] alanah: see
[9/28/12 12:48:18 PM] alanah: heres a nother problem
[9/28/12 12:48:25 PM] alanah: i dont think jedi are as powerful as wizards
[9/28/12 12:48:28 PM] alanah: i mean, yeah
[9/28/12 12:48:35 PM] alanah: either could move something across the room
[9/28/12 12:48:47 PM] alanah: or make some concentrated electrical thing to zap you with
[9/28/12 12:48:59 PM] alanah: but ask a jedi to transfigure a person into a cat
[9/28/12 12:49:04 PM] alanah: and i dont think its possible for them
[9/28/12 12:49:13 PM] alanah: yeah, they both manipulate the matter

[9/28/12 12:49:13 PM] sam: doubtful at best, yeah

[9/28/12 12:49:18 PM] alanah: but a wizard can do that, whereas a jedi cant

[9/28/12 12:49:27 PM] sam: though i bet they could make a person Believe they are a cat

[9/28/12 12:49:51 PM] alanah: a jedi also doesnt use the ingredients of the earth around them much
[9/28/12 12:49:54 PM] alanah: no wands, potions, etc
[9/28/12 12:49:56 PM] alanah: no words
[9/28/12 12:50:04 PM] alanah: where wizards tap into that stuff all the time
[9/28/12 12:50:11 PM] alanah: i think thats what bugs me
[9/28/12 12:50:21 PM] alanah: is it feels, again, just like its gotta be a different verse
[9/28/12 12:51:13 PM] alanah: hm…
[9/28/12 12:51:22 PM] alanah: but believing you are a cat is different from turning into a cat
[9/28/12 12:51:28 PM] alanah: its a different caliber of magic
[9/28/12 12:51:36 PM] alanah: i dont need magic at all, actually, to make someone believe they are a cat
[9/28/12 12:52:03 PM] alanah: enough psychological torture, enough really awful stuff, and i could probably convince someone they are a cat
[9/28/12 12:52:04 PM] alanah: force them to

[9/28/12 12:52:17 PM] sam: it’s only different to the observer, the subject would effectively have the same experience if you exchange their perceptual experience to that of a cat

[9/28/12 12:52:21 PM] alanah: its a matter of speed for jedi
[9/28/12 12:52:34 PM] alanah: no, but in terms of magic
[9/28/12 12:52:41 PM] alanah: if i tell you “turn her into a cat”
[9/28/12 12:52:54 PM] alanah: and one turns the person into a cat, and one just makes them thing they are a cat
[9/28/12 12:53:02 PM] alanah: very different
[9/28/12 12:53:18 PM] alanah: i think a wizard could do either, whereas a jedi can only do one

[9/28/12 12:53:35 PM] sam: I don’t know about that though…you’d have to do some really clever lobotomizing to make someone think they’re a cat…I don’t think anyone can conceive what the cat perspective really is anyway so…how could you force someone to perceive their world in a way that you can concieve of?

[9/28/12 12:54:08 PM] alanah: sam
[9/28/12 12:54:19 PM] alanah: the logistics of making someone think they are a cat
[9/28/12 12:54:25 PM] alanah: is beyond the scope of this class
[9/28/12 12:54:28 PM] alanah: *pointed look*

[9/28/12 12:54:35 PM] sam: hey whatever man

[9/28/12 12:54:38 PM] alanah: the point is, with magic, a wizard could probably do it

[9/28/12 12:54:37 PM] sam: you brought it up

[9/28/12 12:54:48 PM] alanah: and a jedi might be able to pull it off on the weak minded
[9/28/12 12:54:50 PM] alanah: but not the strong

[9/28/12 12:55:02 PM] sam: no i agree that transfiguration is beyond the scope of the jedi’s abilities

[9/28/12 12:55:05 PM] alanah: and a jedi just isnt turning anyone into a literal, furry, transfigured cat
[9/28/12 12:55:08 PM] alanah: it aint happenin

[9/28/12 12:55:14 PM] sam: does Gandalf transfigure things?

[9/28/12 12:55:26 PM] alanah: in the films, no….
[9/28/12 12:55:32 PM] alanah: but i want to say in the books he does
[9/28/12 12:55:32 PM] alanah: oooooo
[9/28/12 12:55:37 PM] alanah: ooooo im sure he does….
[9/28/12 12:55:37 PM] alanah: dangit
[9/28/12 12:55:40 PM] alanah: *thinks*

[9/28/12 12:55:42 PM] sam: lol

[9/28/12 12:55:44 PM] alanah: think think think!

[9/28/12 12:56:04 PM] sam: it’s been about…12 years since i’ve read the Hobbit so…
[9/28/12 12:56:12 PM] sam: my memory’s not that good

[9/28/12 12:56:58 PM] alanah: ditto
[9/28/12 12:56:59 PM] alanah: bleh
[9/28/12 12:57:01 PM] alanah: h/o
[9/28/12 12:57:08 PM] alanah: T_T

[9/28/12 1:17:13 PM] sam: yeah Gandalf totally doesn’t have transfiguration power
[9/28/12 1:17:34 PM] sam: mostly just light/fire stuff, and he can communicate with animals
[9/28/12 1:18:17 PM] sam: also the Wizards are meant to be a separate species from men, pretty much the same just more powerful physically and mentally
[9/28/12 1:19:50 PM] sam: but they weren’t born in the world, they were chosen by the Valar and sent to middle-earth when Sauron started causing problems
[9/28/12 1:21:02 PM] sam: we might just have to say that wizard abilities fall on a wide spectrum…
[9/28/12 1:29:14 PM] sam: i’m probably gonna hop on GW in half an hour, just so’s ya know…if i’m not here…i’m in Tyria
[9/28/12 1:40:26 PM] alanah: lol
[9/28/12 1:40:27 PM] alanah: ok
[9/28/12 1:40:44 PM] alanah: well….i guess the final verdict is that the teefury shirt is STOOPID
[9/28/12 1:40:51 PM] alanah: and none of those guys belong together

[9/28/12 1:41:07 PM] sam: yeah no…it’s dumb

[9/28/12 1:41:09 PM] alanah: not even addressing the fact that we dont know who the hell that last dude is
[9/28/12 1:41:16 PM] alanah: also, wizards are hard
[9/28/12 1:41:23 PM] alanah: and jedi are kind of sort of not
[9/28/12 1:41:28 PM] alanah: but might be
[9/28/12 1:41:30 PM] alanah: but not
[9/28/12 1:41:31 PM] alanah: but might be

[9/28/12 1:41:32 PM] sam: i feel like defining fantasy characters in general is hard…

[9/28/12 1:41:40 PM] alanah: and wizard bears.

[9/28/12 1:41:43 PM] sam: yes
[9/28/12 1:41:59 PM] sam: i think that’s the most important thing…that we’ve said…this whole time…
[9/28/12 1:42:01 PM] sam: wizard bears

[9/28/12 1:42:07 PM] alanah: agreed.


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